21 September 2008

To be Catholic or not to be Catholic, that is the question

The other day i went to church and they were passing out these buttons. The buttons read " You can't be both Catholic and Pro-Choice". Me being the shit stirrer that i am i accepted the button and then looked at the lady and said Why not?

She said Why not what?

I said Why can't i be Catholic and Pr-Choice?

She simply stated i just couldn't. Not the answer i was looking for.

If a person has an abortion, can they call themselves a Christian?

If Christians are forgiven, then it stands to reason that they haven't lost their Christianity over the abortion.

Is abortion wrong? Any normal thinking person must agree that slaughtering a baby is wrong. Is there a time when an abortion is OK?

The bible says to render unto Caesar what is Caesars. This means we must follow the law of the land. If the law says its OK, the general populace says its OK, why is it wrong?

The Bible has many instances where murder was rampant. They even killed babies. If it was OK then, why is it wrong now?

If you oppose abortion, should you must also oppose the Death Penalty? Murder is murder right. Can you be a Christian and believe in the Death Penalty?

If you oppose killing through abortion and the death penalty, then you must oppose war or any confrontation that could result in a killing? If you don't subscribe to this thought process, can you be a Christian? Where does it stop?

If you are against abortion, are you against all forms of abortion? Birth control is abortion. The morning after pill is abortion. If you practice contraception, are you a christian?

If a person doesn't want children but wants to be married, can they be a Christian if they ensure they don't have children?

I guess it depends on how "Good" a Christian you want to be.


dudleysharp said...

For Catholics their are official and firm teachings on certain things.

In Catholic teaching, abortion and the death penalty are very different moral issues

Catholics in good standing can support the death penalty and even an increase in executions, if their own prudential judgement calls for it.
What Ardent Practicing Catholics Do (1)
By Fr. John De Celles, 9/1/2008
"Abortion and euthanasia are thus crimes which no human law can claim to legitimize. There is … a grave and clear obligation to oppose them … [I]t is therefore never licit to … "take part in a propaganda campaign in favor of such a law, or vote for it."
In other words: it is always a grave or mortal sin for a politician to support abortion.

Now, some will want to say that these bishops-and I- are crossing the line from Religion into to politics. But it was the Speaker of the House (Nancy Pelosi) who started this. The bishops, and I, are not crossing into politics; she, and other pro-abortion Catholic politicians, regularly cross over into teaching theology and doctrine, And it's our job to try clean up their mess.

But there's something more than that here. On Sunday, before the whole nation, she claimed to be an "ardent, practicing Catholic." Imagine if someone came in here and said "I'm a mafia hit man and I'm proud of it." Or "I deal drugs to little children." Or "I think black people are animals and it's okay to make them slaves, or at least keep them out of my children's school."
Are these "ardent practicing Catholics"?  No, they are not."

And neither is a person who ardently supports and votes to fund killing 1 to 1.5 million unborn babies every single year. Especially if that person is in a position of great power trying to get others to follow her. Someone, for example, like a Catholic Speaker of the House, or a Catholic candidate for Vice President of the United States, or a Catholic senior Senator who is stands as the leading icon his political party. Like the proud and unrepentant murderer or drug dealer, they are not ardent Catholics. They are, in very plain terms, very bad Catholics."

But the reason I say all this is not because I want to embarrass them or even correct them — they’re not even here. It’s because of you. Because back in the 1850’s when Catholic bishops, priests, and politicians were either silent or on the wrong side of the slavery debate, they risked not only their souls, but the souls of every other Catholic they influenced. I cannot do that, and I won’t do that.

Some would say, well Father, what about those people who support the war in Iraq, or the death penalty, or oppose undocumented aliens? Aren’t those just as important, and aren’t Catholic politicians who support those “bad Catholics” too?

Simple answer: no. Not one of those issues, or any other similar issues, except for the attack on traditional marriage is a matter of absolute intrinsic evil in itself. Not all wars are unjust — and good Catholics can disagree on facts and judgments. Same thing with the other issues: facts are debatable, as are solutions to problems."
 Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI) "stated succinctly, emphatically and unambiguously as follows":

"Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia." (2)
(1) "What Ardent Practicing Catholics Do: Correcting Pelosi", National Review Online, 9/1/2008 6:00AM

(2) "More Concerned with 'Comfort' than Christ?", Cardinal Theodore E. McCarrick: Catholic Online, 7/11/2004 http://www.catholic.org/featured/headline.php NOTE: Ratzinger was Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and delivered this with  guidance to the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops.


Cardinals, Bishops and Congressmen Slam Pelosi on Abortion

New York Cardinal - Pelosi Not Worthy of "Providing Leadership in a Civilized Democracy"

Anonymous said...

Well judging by what you wrote, is it safe to assume that you are a Catholic Priest?

If so, what parish in Texas?


dudleysharp said...


neither Catholic nor a priest. There are just some well known and firm teachings.


Anonymous said...

The way I look at it: If you are a Walmart associate, you don't wear your smock and greet people at Krogers.

canivalpo said...

Good night Ray!! The things you stir up!!
So what's your point or question then? Because your title seems to insinuate a question that needs to be answered from within your religious doctrine.
But the majority of your post is on whether or not a person can be a Christian or fall out of Christianity if they support abortion, the death penalty, and/or war.
You are a Catholic man asking why you can't be Catholic and Pro-Choice. What do you believe? You're the boss..